Author Topic: Frequent towing?  (Read 359 times)

Offline BruceW

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Frequent towing?
« on: July 15, 2017, 10:37:26 AM »
Hi, folks,

I have had CP 19 & Suncat which I towed very frequently.  Currently have CP 23, which I have no plans to tow, other than I park it on the hard at my sailing club, and launch/retrieve there.

Another club member has a Horizon Cat that he mostly launches/retrieves also.

After he showed me the interior, I was really interested in the HC, although it is out of my current price range, and I would have to work on a plan to get one over a couple of years.

Anyway, I have an easy to tow WR for longer trips I take. It is lightweight, sails well, and takes a bit of time to rig. I hope to get better at it, but not sure if I can make it any quicker/easier. Can't envision a mastender for it, but hey.

Anyway, the gleam in my eye is to be able to take a HC all over the place, launch, sail, retrieve, be a vagabond on the road, camp out, all that stuff.

So with that really lengthy overview, how do you experienced HC sailors think that would work? I don't really know the towing capacity needed (currently have a Ford Explorer) or the effect on gas mileage, and the setup launch time, etc.

Thanks in advance.

Hey, it's too hot to sail here today, so I had these sailing thoughts to invade my mind.

Bruce
Bruce Woods
Raleigh: WR 17
New Bern: CP 23

Offline Tom L.

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 11:42:38 AM »
Bruce I think you have a great plan. The HC is considerably heavier but it is far more livable than the Sun Cat I had. Don't tell anybody but I wanted a HC and came very close but went for a Menger 19. Still has a tabernackle for the mast and I can raise it with a permanently mounted pole on the trailer with a turning block and the trailer winch cable. It is hugh inside compared to the Sun Cat. 8' bunks. Cockpit for six easily. The HC is similar.

I tow with a Nissan Frontier. Total capacity is suppose to be 6300#. I weighed my Menger with trailer it was 3850#. The Frontier handled it very well. The longest road trip was from Tom's River in N.J. to The Villages in Florida. I have been side lined by a major health issue for about 2 years but I think that will soon be resolved. And My wife and I will be on the water again this fall. Too hot in Florida this time of year anyway. Summer is our lay up time while all the rest of the year is our cruising time.

I have sailed for years and as I pass 70 I can no longer afford a bigger boat and I cannot personally do the maintenance which made bigger boats affordable for me. And I loved and still do love to cruise new areas. These Cat boats are just perfect for the trailer sailor. THat's all just my opinion.

Tom L.
Present boat, Menger 19 "Wild Cat"    O'Day 25, Montego 25, Catalina 30, Tartan 37, Catalina 380, Mariner 19, Potter 19, Sun Cat

Offline BruceW

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 03:19:11 PM »
Thanks, Tom,

Absent any new info to contrary, I will keep this plan in my back pocket in case I get some moolah.

There's a Menger 19 for sale in NC; has a diesel. I have never had that before. I know the HC can have one; guess that drives the price up too. So, perhaps I might take the route you took away from CP, if I decide to. I don't think my Expl would tow the Menger.

Did Menger go out of biz when the guy died? I seem to remember some kind of tragedy a few years back.

Oh, I have a friend who has a Herreshoff America also. Maybe I will ride with him some time also.

Well, just boat talk for a hot day.
Bruce Woods
Raleigh: WR 17
New Bern: CP 23

Offline Tom L.

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 10:33:33 PM »
Hi Bruce, for all intensive purposes the HC and Manger weigh about the same. I have read multiple posts that said the HC is around 3000# not 2500# as the brochure states. My Menger with the trailer and a full fuel tank , about 100#, and miscellaneous gear is loaded with about 200# or less. I weighed the boat and trailer with the mentioned gear and it was 3850#.

I don't know what your Explorer is rated for but I had a Ford Edge which with a tow package was rated for 3500#. That is under the boat/trailer weight. I never want to cut the numbers too close so I opted to sell the edge and buy a Frontier, rated 6300#, which handled the 3850# very comfortably. Do you know what the Explorer is rated for?

Regarding the cost the older Menger was very close to the older HC if both boats were in about the same condition. New Menger 19s are priced out of sight. The Menger is harder to find but they are out there. I think I may have looked at the boat in N.C. if it was the one that the ComPac dealer has in Richland. I never actually saw the boat. I literally passed near by on my way to N.J. to buy my Menger 19. I couldn't come to a reasonable offer, which was a year ago, but they may have come to a lower price point by now. My issue was the boat being somewhat rough but more importantly the trailer looks to carry the boat too low especially at the stern. I believe it would be a risky boat to trail for fear of dragging the rudder. Secondly the tire were not sized for the load. The load range was too low. That was an easy fix, just buy higher load range tires and ship them in but then the dealer couldn't verify if the axle was going to be strong enough. At the end I just decided to pass.

It is hard to find a single axle trailer that is capable of handling over 4000# (boat, trailer and some gear) bu they are out there my trailer can handle 5200#. It is a single axle with torsion springs and rides like a dream.

The original designer and builder for the M-19 passed some years ago and his son took over the business. They had some problems including a fire that destroyed some of the molds. The newest owner still builds the 19 but not many. He is hard to get info from. I have heard that you can get replacement parts. A sailor in Lake Erie broke a CB and they did make a new one for him. Have no idea about price. I can tell you that service from them is nothing like The ComPac factory, which is simply outstanding. They help their customers find solutions and are always there.

Sorry for the windy response. But I really do like these Cat Boats and want to encourage sailors to look at them long and hard. Particularly for trailer sailors and people who want to simplify sailing.

Tom L.
Present boat, Menger 19 "Wild Cat"    O'Day 25, Montego 25, Catalina 30, Tartan 37, Catalina 380, Mariner 19, Potter 19, Sun Cat

Offline BruceW

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 08:24:20 AM »
Thanks, Tom,

Yes, the Menger 19 I mentioned was in Richlands, NC. I had not investigated it much because I was put off by the old design with centerboard trunk, and the cost is still high for me; not sure what reasonable is, because Keith doesn't own the boat and can't really do much influencing.

In fact, cost is the only issue with me and a Horizon Cat. I may get over that little wheel, may not; may stick with outboard, may not; may never have the $.

I agree on the catboats, exp the Com-pac ones. I had Suncat 21, and it was very easy. I just got tired of sitting hunched over. If the HC had been out in 2000, that's when I had $ and could have bought one. Not sure if I would have kept it, because in '05, I was also motivated by the lack of $.

Explorers I have owned were rated 3500 with the bumper hitch from the factory. This one has a receiver hitch on it, but it is the smaller diameter one, and I really don't know the rating. Towing my CP 23 50 feet from dryslip to launch and back seems okay, but I don't know about stopping ability without brakes, if I was on the hwy.

Anyway, I will stick where I am, because I don't think my 81 CP 23 will raise much cash if I try to sell it, and I don't have anything to put with it anyway; I recently couldn't bid on a really nice CP 19 that I thought was fairly priced.

Enough about that; now back to whining about the fact that if it is cool, it rains, if it is windy, it rains, and if it is not raining it is HOT!

Bruce
Bruce Woods
Raleigh: WR 17
New Bern: CP 23

Offline Tom L.

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 10:29:36 AM »
It is hot in Florida. But as I have said before, summer is layup time. We will be sailing in Sept/Oct through May and June.

The trunk is an issue for the Menger. It's right there in the cabin but there is so much room compared to My old Sun Cat it is very comfortable.

Tom L.
Present boat, Menger 19 "Wild Cat"    O'Day 25, Montego 25, Catalina 30, Tartan 37, Catalina 380, Mariner 19, Potter 19, Sun Cat

Offline BruceW

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2017, 05:36:30 PM »
Tom,

Can you explain how that Menger tabernacle works, vs. the mastender rig? I haven't seen one work before.

Thanks,

Bruce
Bruce Woods
Raleigh: WR 17
New Bern: CP 23

Offline CaptRon28

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2017, 05:47:10 PM »
Before moving it from FL to NJ, I weighed my diesel powered HC several years ago at a certified truck scale. If anyone is interested in some exact numbers -

3760 on the trailer axles plus another 420 on the hitch, for a total of 4180 pounds. I use it mostly as a day-sailor, so there was almost nothing inside the boat. I recall moving the axles back about 2 or 3 inches to get the tongue weight over 400. I was not comfortable with less than 8% of the gvw on the hitch. I also replaced the 10 inch wheels and tires with 13 inch, and added 4 wheel ventilated disc brakes. The trailer see's too much salt water to live with the stock tiny, almost sealed, drum brakes, which were always causing problems. These modifications made a huge difference.

I was towing with a half ton Avalanche, but replaced that 2 years ago with a diesel powered 3/4 ton Silverado. Not really for the HC, but Iv'e got some much heavier trailers.

Ron Marcuse
2007 Horizon Cat (no name yet)
2008 Telstar 28 "Tri-Power"

Offline Tom L.

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2017, 12:37:21 AM »
Bruce the tabernacle for the Menger is simply a pivot point. The mast is either pivoted up by hand and a second pin about 12" lower than the pivot is inserted. These pins are 1/2" ss bolts. The tabernacle is very beefy and passes through the deck and is secured to the hull. The boat is only fitted with a forestay. there are no shrouds so that might give you some idea how strong this tabernacle is. I am too old and unstable to lift the mast hand over hand to its raised position so I added an extension to the trailer winch stand with a turning block. The winch cable is passed through the block to the forestay and the trailer winch very easily raises and lowers the mast.

Tom L.
Present boat, Menger 19 "Wild Cat"    O'Day 25, Montego 25, Catalina 30, Tartan 37, Catalina 380, Mariner 19, Potter 19, Sun Cat

Offline BruceW

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Re: Frequent towing?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 08:10:12 AM »
Cool weight info, Ron!

I learned to weigh the actual load back when I had some issues with a Precision trailer. It weighed considerably more (boat, stuff, trailer) than I expected.

Tom,

Thanks for explaining the tabernacle. I am guessing the height of the tabernacle is an important detail in how easy the mast is to raise.

I use a similar method to raise the mast of my WindRider. I can raise it from the cockpit, but have to lower and twist my back to do so, and that has ramifications.

I might look at the Menger or my friend's Herreshoff some time just to get it in my mind. However, the HC is probably my gold standard goal boat for now.

Bruce
Bruce Woods
Raleigh: WR 17
New Bern: CP 23