Author Topic: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking  (Read 1508 times)

Offline blighhigh

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2016, 09:20:29 PM »
Mostly ignorance. At the time I didn't realize that the 6 hp engine had an alternator function.  I was also thinking of putting the boat into the Gulf of Mexico where the need for extra horse power might come in handy. 

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2016, 10:23:24 PM »
Tom,

What is your docking situation? Do you keep her in a slip with electric (the basis of this question is obvious)? Can you go forward into the slip (again obvious)?
Do you trail each time and keep her at home?

We would all like to help you spend your money, but it may be well spent. No more hauling gas, cranky, noisy, vibrating outboard. I think that you are in an ideal situation for electric propulsion whether it be inboard or outboard. Short motoring distances, daily access to shore power for charging. As far as the remote is concerned, it would be the same problem with a gas outboard, and I don't think small gas outboards come ready for remote hook up. In my experience, one of the benefits of an outboard is the ability to steer with it for close maneuvers like docking. So, you can get all the above-mentioned benefits plus super reliability with the Torqeedo and you can easily carry an extra battery for backup. I saw an Americat 22 under way with a Torqeedo and was surprised at how fast it was pushing that boat, and it's about 5000 lbs.

Don't wish to start a firestorm here, but the Tohatsu built 6hp would not be my choice of a gas outboard. As far as I know, Tohatsu also builds the small Mercury and Nissan motors. Had one and hated it. Added insulation to the underside of the cover and bent tight the forward cover hold down to eliminate some of the noise, better but still not good. Used an extra washer under the plastic finger nut to help hold the motor in a straight forward position, helped but not 100%. The vibration will always be there with this motor. Their two cylinder 9.9 is much smoother but as you mentioned there is a weight penalty. I would look for input on a Yamaha or Suzuki in the 6hp range from owners. I had a Suncat with an older Yamaha 4hp, and that motor was amazing for a single cylinder, quiet and smooth and always started even after sitting for a while.

My vote is electric, but it's your money. Best of luck which ever your choice.
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline cdflan

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2016, 09:52:20 AM »
Tom
Yes, single handed.  Only plus of 4.0 I suspect is faster acceleration when you shove it in reverse.

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2016, 01:48:46 PM »
What is your docking situation?
I saw an Americat 22 under way with a Torqeedo and was surprised at how fast it was pushing that boat, and it's about 5000 lbs.

Hi Ron,

Thank you for the good feedback on the Tohatsu and Yamaha outboards, a lot to consider, a twin outboard would be nicer for its smoother running albeit at a 20-60 pound weight penalty over the smaller one cylinders.

Regarding the Torqeedo on the Americat 22, was is it a smaller 1003 outboard, the larger Cruise 2.0/4.0 outboard or the Pod?

My plan is to be berthed at the marina 90% of the time with the occasional trail to other lakes in Texas, after I retire. There is electric at the slip, pull in or back in is possible. From the below photo you get an idea of the marina I'm considering, while this is an end shot, no telling what will be open when I get the boat, so all turns and directions are possible.



I currently sail out of Long Beach, California at Harbor Light Yacht Club, a Capri 22 with Lehr outboard. Sailing one November a nice fog bank rolled in and the wind and waves kicked up, I was full open on the little Lehr throttle and micro prop, headed back into the marina when the propane cylinder ran out, by the time I got the propane canister changed out, I was 50 feet off the nice large jetty rocks. This experience ingrained in me the need for adequate power and taught me the value of Google Maps navigation on my cell phone, in the fog, both situations I hope not to encounter in the future, especially on inland lakes in Texas, save for the tornado or two.

Tom
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)

Offline Shawn

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2016, 08:27:21 PM »
Tom,

"Suzuki 9.9 HP DF9.9BTL Outboard (EFI to reduce ethanol gunk problems, but heavy)"

Probably would be overkill on a Horizon cat but this is one great engine. I have the 9.9 BTX on a 7900 pound Sabre 28 and it drives to boat beautifully.

Shawn

Offline DanM

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2016, 09:17:09 PM »
One solution for a gas powered outboard would be to disconnect the fuel hose when you are back in your slip.  Let the motor finish off the remaining fuel in the carb. and voila there is no gunk to worry about.  I repowered my HC using a Tohatsu 8 hp engine.  Lets of power and very efficient.  Down side with large engines is that the weight may be too much for the outboard bracket so check before you buy.


I would like to second the idea of disconnecting the fuel source (or shutting the fuel valve on a motor w/ integral tank) and letting the motor run dry, if you are leaving it for more than overnight. I've had several outboard mechanics recommend this, along with non-ethanol fuel, as the best thing to do for your motor.

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2016, 10:24:37 AM »
Hi Shawn and DanM,

  Thanks so much for the tips, keep them coming.

Tom
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2016, 11:15:35 AM »
Tom,

From what I see, your docking situation doesn't seem too difficult even for an inboard. Looks like you have to lower the mast, but a covered slip is nice. Keep in mind that an outboard whether gas or electric will give you total control when maneuvering in close quarters. Having the board at least partially down will help in crosswind situations and give you quicker turns.

I didn't get close enough to see which Torqeedo was used on the Americat, but it seems from my obsevations that they do a superb job of moving displacement hulls, and the portable model allows a spare battery to be easily replaced. Not a bad choice, but as you pointed out, a much bigger investment is required. I'd say that if you are sure of keeping this boat for a while, the extra investment may be worth it if for no other reason than the ease of use.

As far as size goes, seems like a gas 5hp it quite adequqte, but remember that gas engines don't develope the rated horse power until they reach the upper end of their RPM range. Electric motors deliver their full power from RPM 1, so I don't think you need to "size up" to get the performance you desire. The total weight of an electric with LI battery will be much less hanging on the transom than a gas. If I am not mistaken it would also be much easier to raise and lower with that extended cockpit. You may even find a very simple way of raising and lowering it with lines from within the cockpit.

Many sailors have found the "keep it simple" concept to be key to enjoying the sport. Which ever solution works best for you is the right solution, and since sailboats aren't a necessity in life, if we spend a little extra to reach our goal then it's probably worth it.

P.S there are kits available to connect your outboard motor to the rudder for steering, which may play a role for you.
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline Loki2

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2016, 08:12:59 PM »
I've had the same experience as potcake boy's post. Used a Nissan (Tohatsu)9.8 for years for a larger boat, pretty good but overall engineered for cost unlike Yamaha which does it right resulting in a higher priced product. I sail a  Legacy now with a 4hp 4cycle Yamaha and lovem both. More power than I've ever needed    Mike Sr
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 10:21:39 PM by Loki2 »
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Offline Shawn

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2016, 10:32:16 PM »
"As far as size goes, seems like a gas 5hp it quite adequqte, but remember that gas engines don't develope the rated horse power until they reach the upper end of their RPM range. Electric motors deliver their full power from RPM 1, so I don't think you need to "size up" to get the performance you desire."

You are comparing HP vs. torque though. HP = ( torque X RPM) / 5252

An electric motor delivers full torque at 0 RPM (and 0 HP)  but that can also mean it produces less torque as RPM increases depending upon the design. The torque curve on a gas engine is complicated (follows VE curve) but it of course needs to be spinning to generate torque and max torque will be around 2/3 of max RPM. Max HP depends upon the torque curve and the max RPM of the engine.

Because the electrics can generate torque so low they end up being geared and propped a bit different than a gas engine. The lower prop speed can help reduce slipping which is where the "equivalent to" comes into play somewhat.

But in real terms a gas engine will have more power available (assuming it is propped correctly to reach peak RPM).

The Torqueedo 1003 has a battery capacity of 530 watt hours. It can put out 530 watts for 1 hour. 1 HP is equivalent to 745 watts. A 5 hp outboard is 3725 watts (1hp = 745 w). A 3 gallon tank of gas would last a bit over 6 hours on a 5hp outboard. A 530 watt hour battery trying to duplicate that 3725 watts  would be drained very quickly... about 9 minutes assuming it can safely put out that much power.

Shawn

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2016, 05:30:46 PM »
You are comparing HP vs. torque though. HP = ( torque X RPM) / 5252

But in real terms a gas engine will have more power available (assuming it is propped correctly to reach peak RPM).

1 HP is equivalent to 745 watts. A 5 hp outboard is 3725 watts (1hp = 745 w).

Hello Shawn,

  Thanks so much for the great explanation, I was wondering what the conversion was for the equivalent power.

Thank you, Tom
 
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2016, 05:54:23 PM »
Actually, Shawn I wasn't attempting to make comparisons, just trying to make the point that it shouldn't be necessary to up the power for an electric system. In fact, Torqeedo states their ratings as "equivalent". Most of us operate our gas motors at no more than half throttle unless there are adverse conditions to deal with. The reason is usually for smoother and quieter operation, and better fuel efficiency. That means that we are not actually utilizing that manufacturer rated hp. Many manufacturers provide two hp models from the same block, the difference being the carburetor, and manifold. When compared, the difference is the maximum RPM. With better torque characteristics of electric motors performance should be equal but with lower RPM from the electrics. It would be helpful if Torqeedo provided the basis of their "equivalent" ratings. It would also be helpful if they would provide efficiency curves. Somewhere I recall seeing runtime rating comparisons for different throttle settings. That would be helpful in gauging the storage needs for each application. Considering the price of LI batteries and that weight isn't such a critical factor on a HC, I think it worth examining the suitability of using AGM storage. I once used a trolling motor on my Picnic Cat with a single group 24 battery, but studied the possibility of placing two batteries in the bilge, one on each side of the centerboard trunk, but sold it before I did that project. Don't remember what torque rating the motor was, but it wasn't the biggest and propelled the Picnic Cat just fine. How long does Hutchins say you can run their electric rig between chargings?

I have done those numbers myself to determine if electric would be a practical option. Unfortunately, as a cruiser, it isn't yet quite adequate. I looked at all kinds of  methods of generating and storing the power needed for long distance cruising and couldn't find a suitable solution. Cruising in open water with unpredictable destinations dictates that you have plenty of energy capacity as you can't count on recharging in a marina after a days' motoring. It's easy to carry extra gas. As for lake sailing, I think it not too difficult to make do with electric, and believe the quiet and simplicity is a considerable reward.

Long story short, there is more than a hand full of sailboats that I have seen successfully using electric power. There is at least one company (I'm sure there are more) to my knowledge that provides electric propulsion as standard equipment for one of their daysailor models. I can only assume from these observations that it is indeed viable for some applications. If it would work for me, I'd already be there.
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline rbh1515

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2016, 10:50:09 PM »
Some interesting analyses!  I was a science major and used to know all that electrical stuff, but it is in cobwebs now.
Here is my real world analysis of the Torqeedo 1003 on my HDC:
1) Cost: Expensive but not over the top expensive.  Retail $1999;  got it from Defender during their spring sale for 20% off retail.  Offsetting the high price, I don't buy gas and there is no yearly maintenance.  After 5 years there is maintenance needed, and I don't yet know the cost.
2) Ease of use:  push a button to start.  Don't have to yank on anything.  Shifter is built into the throttle, so you don't have to reach back to shift.  There is an available remote throttle...that's what I use, and it makes life very easy!  Battery weighs 10#, and engine weighs 20#.  Easy to take on and off.  Since I use the remote throttle, I don't have the tiller throttle attached, and it is very easy to tilt the outboard out of the water.
3) Reliability/customer service:  I am nearing the end of my 2nd season and have had no problems.  Their customer service is amazing.  I called a number of times with questions before I bought it, and their people are incredibly knowledgeable.
4) Range:  For my day sailing on Lake Michigan it has been great.  I have never come back with less than 70% power left.  I do get a bit nervous about sailing out 5 to 10 miles and having the wind die.  That could be a problem.
5) Power: I  usually use about half throttle and go between 2.5 to 3 knots....kind of slow motion, but usually I'm not in a hurry.  If I'm in a hurry, I'll give it full throttle and go 4 knots.  The battery will only last about 30 minutes full power.
6) Noise/vibration/exhaust smell:  none...maybe a low whine to the motor.
Torqeedo just came out with a 915Wh battery.  That would give me 1 hour ar full throttle.  It's not cheap, but I'll try to buy it on sale and I think this will solve my range anxiety.

Bottom line:  I think it's great for daysailing, if you don't have to fight any currents etc.  I go out all the time on Lake Michigan in 15 knot winds.  I typically don't have to fight waves because I sail into the inner harbor which is protected.
Rob
2015 Horizon Day Cat, Waters End

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2016, 08:31:19 AM »
Rob,

Thanks for that great bit of input from real world experience.
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2016, 08:55:13 AM »
Considering the price of LI batteries and that weight isn't such a critical factor on a HC, I think it worth examining the suitability of using AGM storage.

How long does Hutchins say you can run their electric rig between chargings?

Regarding AGM vs LI:

ODYSSEY® PC1800-FT AGM
12 volt
132 pounds
214 Ah
400 cycles at 80% depth of discharge (DOD)
$500 each
(for 24 volt Torqeedo Curise 2.0 you need two, for 48 volt Torqeedo Curise 4.0 you need four, this is what Charlie used)

vs:

Torqeedo 26-104 Li NMC
24 volt
54 pounds
104 Ah
800 cycles at 100% depth of discharge (DOD)
$2,600
(for 24 volt Torqeedo Curise 2.0 you need one, for 48 volt Torqeedo Curise 4.0 you need two)

So you can see you need two sets of the ODYSSEY® PC1800-FT AGM for roughly the same life of one Torqeedo 26-104 Li NMC:
2 x 132 lbs - 264 lbs
2 x $500 = $1,000
2 x 2 sets of batteries = $2,000

vs.

The Torqeedo 26-104 Li NMC setup is:
1 x 54 lbs - 54 lbs
1 x $2,600 = $2,600
1 x 1 battery = $2,600

Hutchins does not list the range of The Launch, they are using 3 x 130 pound 12 volt batteries for the Elco 6hp motor, not sure of the battery type. However, they only built the prototype, no one has bought one.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 11:10:30 AM by Zephyros »
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)