Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

General Com-Pac and Sailing Related Discussions => Sailing your CP - Tips and Tricks => Topic started by: PalmettoSailor on May 02, 2015, 08:05:38 PM

Title: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: PalmettoSailor on May 02, 2015, 08:05:38 PM
My dilemma is this: today I was out with my so and flying the 155% in 7 mph winds; or thereabouts. On port tack, not a problem getting the bow through the wind to a starboard tack. However, when going from a starboard tack to a port tack, the bow would hang at the point of irons then get swept back and I'd have to gibe in order to get back on a port tack.
Can any of you vets give me some idea of what is going on.
I will tell you that because of the nearness of the banks in the area I was sailing, I had the prop in the water. Was that enough drag to keep the bow from moving across from a starboard tack to a port tack?
Wind didn't change direction or intensity. Not a consideration.
Await your expertise, and thanks in advance.
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: JBC on May 02, 2015, 10:08:42 PM
My 16/3 has a 110 jib on a furler, so I have no experience with the larger Genoa. But I have no such problem tacking with my setup (in very light air, tacking is sometimes hard on either tack).  Your experience does sound odd and I can't think of a reason for the difference, unless shifting your and your crew's weight during tacking is somehow different on each tack.  The 16 is sensitive to these things in light air.

Jett
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: crazycarl on May 03, 2015, 12:36:31 AM
Could be the wind was a few degress different than the previous tack.

CC
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: carry-on on May 03, 2015, 05:39:50 AM
What are the "banks" you refer to? Are the shoals or land banks? If land banks close to starboard, the wind may seem the same but be above your sail. Were you sailing alone? As you probably know, the 16 is somewhat sensitive to weight shift. Do you have tracks that allow changes in sheet angle?
How big is your motor? Maybe the drag was a factor. I have a 4hp Nissan, 59 pounds, heavy for the 16. I've not sailed with the motor down. With light wind , I sit well forward.

I'm not an expert. Just bought a 3 oz. 150% for my 16. It is a bunch of material to tack alone  but really catches that light wind.
At 7 mph, a light weight genoa should tack OK. Need about 2kts + at start  of tack and try delaying shifting the sheets until you have some backwind on the jib. The tack is likely 120 degrees. Also, no rush to shift your weight.

Enjoy the ride.
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: Bob23 on May 03, 2015, 05:55:22 AM
Palmetto:
   My thoughts are this:
1. You are sailing with old sails. On my 1985 23, when I first got her, she had the original sails which were blown out but I didn't realize it. She occasionally would get stuck in irons and I'd either have to motor through or seriously backwind the jib to get the bow around. When I replaced those sails, it was like a different boat1 She points much higher, which means she has fewer degrees to go through to reach the next point of sail.
2.  Do you have a foiled rudder? The flat blade that was original equipment was much easier to stall. Again, when I added a foiled rudder blade the my 23, it vastly improved the performance! Much easier to tack through and the boat itself seemed a bit faster.
3.  Do you sail in a tidal area? Depending on the tides direction it could help you on one tack and hinder you on the other. I sail in tidal waters so this comes from my observations.
  Even though the above comments are from my experience on my 23, keep in mind that the 23 and 16 share the same underbody shape so they have similar sailing characteristics. Hope this helps!
Bob23
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: skip1930 on May 03, 2015, 09:51:35 AM
Sounds like the CP-16 was not going fast enough before throwing the tiller hard over to come about.

One word. Momentum.

Happens all the time on CP-19's. Same under water shape. Same results.

skip.
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: PalmettoSailor on May 03, 2015, 10:36:12 AM
Gentlemen,
As I suspected your comments were "spot on".  This was my first time to use this genoa, as I've been using the 110%. So, after switching to the 110 because of an hour or more of frustration at not being able to tack to port, there was no further problem tacking.
The area in which we were sailing was a large, tidal creek off the icw. And yes there is tidal influence, Bob, that probably made a difference in the port tack maneuver. The starboard tack was well out of the main channel of current. So while I suspected wind on the big sail, it was probably current stalling the bow, then kicking the stern around and forcing me to gibe to gain the upper hand.
Also, the maneuver was closer to the land (shoal) bank than the starboard tack and probably did disturb the wind direction and intensity more than I thought.
I do have the original rudder, so maybe it is time for an update. The motor is a 4 hp mercury, and we both sit well forward in the cockpit, usually, and were yesterday. It's so hard to put everything in your scenario, isn't it.
Again, thanks to you severally for your input and suggestions. It will help me be a better sailor.
Marc
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: Craig on May 03, 2015, 02:41:54 PM
Another thought. If you have the stock flat blade rudder, it is easy to create "rudder stall" if you put the helm over too far when tacking. The stall situation could be exacerbated by current variables. If the rudder "stalls" it will lose effectiveness and act like a big brake.
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: Winkle on June 07, 2015, 03:01:28 PM
Hi PalmettoSailor,
I'm glad you made way with your problem on tacking. Your mention of O/B in the water and drag got me wondering. On which side is your O/B mounted? I suppose it is to port, since that seems so common (on all of mine, at least.)  If so, it would act as a drogue, or an off-centre skeg, tending to swing the bow to port. In marginal conditions with poor drive from your sails, I wonder if this might be enough to impair tacking to starboard. Getting better drive from your 110% might be all you need, but it suggests to me that you still have some issue with your larger sail.
Regards,
Rod
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: Patsjoy on October 18, 2016, 11:13:38 PM
You can wait for your bow to go through the wind before you release the jib, the back wind should bring the bow around, works well with catarams to.
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: Citroen/Dave on October 20, 2016, 09:51:16 AM
Craig's comments about the flat plate rudder are correct; likely the culprit.  With the flat plate, do not throw the tiller hard over.  Move the tiller slowly and gently as the rudder will stall very easily. A slow movement will allow the rudder to do its job by accelerating the turn rather than stopping it.

One of the best cures for the CP problem is a new hydrodynamically designed rudder.  It will turn the boat far more effectively and much faster.

Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: Elk River on October 20, 2016, 10:35:12 AM
Palmetto Sailor:

      I have a 19/2 with a foiled rudder, so can't speak about the stock rudder other than to say that from reading on the forum that they aren't worth keeping.  I agree with Patsjoy that backwinding the jib works very well to bring the bow around.  I use this often with our boat, even with the foiled rudder.  The tiller, as mentioned earlier, must be dealt with tenderly, not slammed over.

     Hope this helps a little bit more.

     Elk River
Title: Re: tacking and not tacking on 16 II
Post by: CayugaSailor on November 24, 2016, 01:10:17 PM
Just the nature of a Genoa. Helpful for cruising, but oftentimes a hindrance for tacking.