Author Topic: Rudder post steering platform broken loose  (Read 581 times)

Offline relamb

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Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« on: March 15, 2017, 10:52:48 PM »
Out sailing last night and the steering bound up.  My son crawled down under and the cables had come off the steering quadrant.  He put them back on and then noticed the reason...  The whole platform that supports the top of the rudder, rudder tube, quadrant etc has come unglued from the transom wall.
It's not broken or rotted, just that the bond from the plywood frame to the back wall failed.
We were in 3-4' waves and as every wave swept under the boat it would move the whole platform around, the top of the rudder post moved 5" side to side.
I don't know how that didn't cause a huge leak where the post went through the hull.
We anchored out in the lee of an island in a calm spot and decided to fix it in the am.
Dinghying ashore, we found some washed up boards, and cut them with a hand saw to brace between the front of the steering assembly to the water heater and fuel tank.  To prevent side to side movement, we drilled a hole in each side of the plywood knee towards the top, ran a line through and tied a stopper knot on the outside.
These lines crossed and went up through the port in the deck where you attach the emergency tiller.   we ran the lines around the stern cleat and then to the sheet winches to winch them tight.   Thus the starboard knee was pulled to port, and vice versa, centering the force to keep the whole platform in place side to side.
It worked, we were able to motor 15 miles back to the dock, the top of the rudder post only moved maybe 1/2" side to side probably from the rope stretch.
So the question is, how would you fix this?  Should I pull the assembly forward and try to prep the transom and back of the tab, and epoxy it back in place?
Saw off the transom flange and make a new one?  I haven't done much fiberglass/epoxy work.
I will try to post a pic
Rick
CP16 CP23 CP27
Zionsville, IN

Offline relamb

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2017, 11:11:24 PM »


You can't really tell from the picture, but the fiberglass bond between the platform and the transom wall has come unbonded.  Appears to have started coming off at the top and working its way down over time, until it's complete free of the transom and just setting in place.  ...until a wave hits the rudder.
It's securely bonded to the wood, but popped off the transom.
Rick
CP16 CP23 CP27
Zionsville, IN

Offline Wes

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2017, 07:04:22 AM »
Wow, that's surprising that the tabbing came off the transom. The fiberglass face of the transom must not have been correctly cleaned and prepped for the epoxy tabbing as the factory. I would re-do it - pull off the old tabbing, clean and scuff up the transom and rudder support with 80 grit paper or a grinder, and epoxy in new tabbing. Might as well do two or three layers. If you are not expernced with epoxy repairs, WEST System has good how-to videos on their web site.

Wes
"Bella", 1988 CP 19/3 #453
Washington, North Carolina

Offline deisher6

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2017, 08:26:43 AM »
Hey Relamb:
Great repair on the spot, well done. 

It looks as if your '27 uses cables and sheaves, ours an early 1986 uses cables inside of conduit.  The stress(es) on the rudder post would be different for each system. 

Another thought would have been to install the back up steering tiller and support the top of the rudder post  by wedging stuff around the tiller in hole in the cockpit deck.

I would look for damage at the lower end of the rudder post tube when you make your repair.  I had some problems in that area. 
C-27 Rudder Post Damage / Repair
« on: June 28, 2015, 03:52:21 PM »

Again great temp repair, good thinking.

regards charlie

Offline relamb

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2017, 07:40:57 PM »
So, I thought I'd test out the legendary customer service and called Hutchins.  Talked to Gerry who said he'd never heard of this happening before, although it has because there's a mention of it in an old thread on this forum.  He said to cut off the flange that was glassed to the transom, grind off the part on the plywood, and reglass it.  Then, the new models have a stainless L bracket on top of that, each side,  for "extra security".  So somewhere along the line it was determined to be a need, after my 1988 was built.  I was in Clearwater today, so he said they would make me a set of the brackets used on the new models.  Would only take a day or two.  Two hours later I get a call saying they are ready, so I picked them up and also saw how they were installed on a new CP27 being built in the shop.
If you see two stainless carriage bolt heads on your transom, you probably have the brackets.  If you dont, you should check to make sure whoever laid up mine didn't do yours too!  He was amazed the rudder tube did not leak, but I showed him the pics and he said it should be fine, there's no water.  Maybe my son was exgagerating when he said how much it was flexing,  I only saw it after we wedged it in place and I watched i through the tiller hole and it only maybe moved a half inch each way.    The brackets were $56 roughly,   By the way the transom has a wood core, so you need to drill a bigger hole, fill it, and drill through the core so it doesn't weep water into the transom core.  The only other plywood under the waterline in the boat is the floor of the bilge under the companionway step, where the bilge pump mounts.  It's encapsulated but people drill holes through into it to mount bilge pumps, and that will allow water to seep into that plywood, rot it, and eventually into the keel.  Ill have to check, because he said they do not screw the bilge pump down, it just sets in there.  Mine has been screwed down, alhough I used the same holes and caulked when I replaced the pump.
As far as doing the actual work, Im having the boat hauled next week to drag back up north for the summer, and they can do the repairs in 4-6 hours that same day.  I've decided to spring for that so I don't have to crawl down there and grind off the old fiberglass.
Below are a picture of the new brackets, and the amazingly unbent stainless rudder tube.

Rick
CP16 CP23 CP27
Zionsville, IN

Offline deisher6

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2017, 06:44:07 AM »
Hey Rick:
Thank you for the update and research.  All good stuff to know and to keep in the back of your mind when sailing.  Certainly something (else) to think about our next haul out.

Please try again with the flicks.

Olde C=27's gotta love them.

regards charlie

Offline relamb

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 02:01:55 PM »
The brackets used on new models, over  and in addition to the fiberglass tabs.  One bolt through the transom, two through the plywood knee support, a bracket on each side.
Rudder tube is stainless, not sure how it's fastened to/thru the hull.

Brackets



Rudder shaft tube


Stabilizing the steering assembly with lines down through emergency tiller port, run around stern cleats and to sheet winches to tension.

Rick
CP16 CP23 CP27
Zionsville, IN

Offline redfishnc

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2017, 10:17:38 PM »
Charlie, we discussed the SS bracket the other day.  I went down to check and my 1993 has them.  Not sure what year they started adding them.

Offline deisher6

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2017, 09:49:28 AM »
Hey Wayne, interesting. 

They are definitely not on '86 and I do not think that they are on Wes's '88.  I am wondering if Wes is considering installation of these brackets?  Wes, I would be glad to help out for the experience.  I am wondering if there is a room problem with he bolt heads under the steering quadrant, 

BTW there is a definite difference between '86-'88 with the steering cables:  cable through conduits for ''86 vs cable and sheaves for '88.

regards charlie

Offline Wes

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2017, 01:02:19 PM »
Nope, I don't have them on the 1988. No immediate plans to install them but you can bet I'll crawl back there and make sure the tabbing is secure.

Wes
"Bella", 1988 CP 19/3 #453
Washington, North Carolina

Offline redfishnc

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2017, 09:40:00 AM »
Charlie, we discussed the SS bracket the other day.  I went down to check and my 1993 has them.  Not sure what year they started adding them.

Will take pic soon and shoot it to you, my pasting abilities on here are sub-par.  From what i recall it did not look like a problem and they were very simple.  By the way fired her up yesterday ofter replacing the exhaust manifold gasket.  Replaced lights with new LED fixtures.  Getting close and will talk soon.  Maybe soon I will figure out how to post pics.

Offline CurtTampa

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2017, 07:45:55 AM »
Good to know! I crawled back to inspect and found everything intact. On my 89 I have the brackets but not nearly as robust as the ones pictured. UPDATE: on second look they are the robust ones pictured.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 09:50:08 PM by CurtTampa »

Offline relamb

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2017, 02:01:17 PM »
I had the boat hauled out for transport back to the midwest from St Pete.  Decided to contract out the repair to the boatyard doing my haulout.  The steering platform appears glassed all the way around, inside and out to the transom.  Boatyard decided they could only get to about 80% of it  and recommended dropping the rudder and taking out the steering so they could do the whole thing, but it would have meant a 3-week wait.  I decided that the "emergency" bracket would be strong enough with 80% of the platform re-glassed, but they were hesitant.  So what the heck, why not use two sets of brackets.  Compac recommended doing the whole thing, but would make me a second set of brackets if I chose to do it that way..  I went ahead and had it re-bonded and put in two sets of brackets, it was less than $300 for the boatyard labor to do the work @$90/hour.  Boatyard also told me the transom was NOT cored, it was solid when they drilled it.  Maybe that's changed on the newer boats.  When it was done, they felt pretty good about it being secure for the long run.
Another strange thing, Hutchins said I would need to grind off the old glass bond and re-do.  Well, it not only had popped off the transom, it took about 30 seconds to pop the old bonds loose from the plywood table as well, on both sides.  Must have been bad chemicals or crappy surface prep, they came off like they had been pasted on with elmers glue.    So, not only look for cracks, maybe give a little push on your assembly and make sure, despite how it looks.
I'll post some pics of the repair in a few days when I recover from my 1100 mile sail up the interstate.
Rick
CP16 CP23 CP27
Zionsville, IN

Offline relamb

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2017, 09:22:41 PM »
Here's a photo of the final repair.  The original fiberglass tabs glueing the table assembly to the transom just popped off easily enough, they did not need to be ground off.  The surface was then ground and re-glassed.  Finally, TWO sets of the later model compac L-brackets were bolted on.
This is the port side, looking aft.

Rick
CP16 CP23 CP27
Zionsville, IN

Offline deisher6

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Re: Rudder post steering platform broken loose
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2017, 07:56:17 PM »
Hey Rick:
Thanks for the pictures. 

Are these brackets on the vertical side(s) of the steering assembly?

Did you change anything on the horizontal part of the assembly under the steering quadrant?

regards charlie