Author Topic: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan  (Read 3852 times)

Offline JEsails

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Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« on: February 12, 2016, 06:16:25 PM »
New to the site. I live and sail in Colorado, multi-directional and gusty wind is the norm; goes from 8mph to 20mph in 30 minutes.  I am considering purchasing a 1989 Com-Pac 27-2 but have no experience with Com-Pac. My only experience with sailing has been the last two seasons self taught on a Macgregor 26X (which I’ve been told is not a good sailor). She has a new home now.

If there is anyone out there who has made note of such things, I would really appreciate knowing how the Com- Pac performs in various wind conditions and sail plans. For instance, with a full main and jib, at a close reach, how much wind speed  can she handle before reaching a 15-18 degree heel (absent, spilling, pinching and falling off)? Same question with one reef in the main and partial jib? Also, if you’ve had the pleasure of rounding her up, at what wind speed with what sail plan did that occur? Thank you for any enlightenment.

Offline Jim23

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2016, 07:13:29 PM »
I sail Lake Granby in Colorado so I understand your concern for stability. I sail a 23 so I can't speak to the 27's sailing characteristics but I'm sure they'll be stellar compared to the 26X.

Welcome to the forum. Glad to hear someone else in Colorado is interested in Compac. They're fairly rare in the west.

Offline SteveA

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2016, 10:00:21 PM »
First of all, I love the boat... 

I have only had my  86 CP 27 for the last 2 years so I am still learning her ways.  I did join in most all of the Monday night and Sunday morning races all last season.  I was always the only cruiser in the fleet and weigh twice as much as most of the other boats.  So I was usually bringing up the rear, BUT, I learned more about sailing last year than years of cruising in larger boats.  Racing is the best way to learn.

Controlling the angle of heal is all important.  I have been surprised and rounded up a number of times with a 135% and full main in a strong puff sailing by myself.  With crew reacting quickly to de-power the main she can be kept on her feet in a strong gust but it you have to be quick.  Of course with less sail up those problems can go away.  I did rake the mast forward as much as the rigging would allow to try to take away as much of the weather helm as I could, but in the end, that didn't really make a noticeable difference.  My very first impressions of the boat were that the weather helm was excessive, but have learned that the real problem was just too much sail out and/or not a quick enough de-power.

I am in Washington and sail on Lake Pend Oreille in northern Idaho.  The lake is 45 miles long and 1100' deep for lots of good sailing and I can hardly wait for the season to start...

Steve



Offline deisher6

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2016, 09:58:49 AM »
Hey JE:
We bought a used 86 C-27 2.5 years ago when we moved back to NC.  it is our second C-27, we had a new '86 back in 1986 that we sailed for four years with our family of 5, three daughters, one adult and me, sort of in-between.

I have had some experience on C-16's and 23's as well as some planing hulls.  In my opinion the ComPac's do not sail well with much heel and will round up with a gust.  That is not a particularly bad characteristic.  If you are fighting a bunch of weather helm, it is probably time to consider reefing.  Our current boat has one reef point in the main, a 150 or 155 jib, a stock 120, and a 120 that is cut down to about a 90.  I should measure these to be more accurate.

The 155 with full main is good till there are a few whitecaps on the chop.  Next is the full main with the 120 which is good till there are a bunch of whitecaps and the chop is getting organized into some waves.  Then a reefed main and the 120 will take some of the weather helm out and I would be wishing that I had put up the 90 instead of the 120 if the wind is still increasing.  The reefed main and the 90 handle steady winds pretty well.  However a couple of weekends ago the wind was gusting above 25 mph and the boat was getting more challenging than I wanted to handle by myself, and I wound up with just a reefed main.  The boat was easier to handle and hit 5.5 kts (on both GPS and mechanical knot/log meter).  I wish that I had the boomkicker that the comptroller has put on hold, installed.

There are really no great places to sheet the 90 to.  I have been using the standard jib turning block all the way forward on the track and it doesn't seem quite right.  I just had the 90 re-cut shortening the luff.  I wanted to be able to hoist it higher getting the foot further off the deck.  It has been an interesting sail.  A couple of weeks ago, I was tho lazy to change the jib as the wind dropped and I was just a couple of miles from home. It was a head wind probably 7-10mph.  There was an O'Day 34 with a large overlapping genoa that was headed the same way. From about .25 nm behind I managed to pass him and gain a couple hundred yards windage on him in about 4nm. 

I was surprised.  The '27 was sailing upright and I am thinking that the 90, trimmed very tight, really increased the efficiency of the main. I know that the O'Day was trying....other factors could be bottom, mine is pretty clean and weight...I had dumped the water tank.

Anyhow, I recommend the C-27.....

regards charlie

ps As Wes and I have found it heaves too nicely

Offline JEsails

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2016, 04:31:29 PM »
Thank you Skipper Charlie. I very much appreciate the helpful information on your experience with the sail plans for various sea conditions. I’ve kept a log of such factors since I started sailing and am a firm believer in what Skipper Dirty Harry said, a man’s gotta know his limitations. But I think Skipper Harry also would agree that a man’s gotta know his yacht’s limitations as well. On my outings to discover my Macgregor 26x limitations (which I quickly found :-),  a full main and a 150 gen in 17 mph wind would produce heel of 20 to 25 degrees and eventually rounded up when it hit 20 mph and heeled 30 degrees coinciding with the exact moment my wife (and comptroller) asked for a divorce. I was free to buy a boom kicker, but that didn't help.

You’ve described that  your sail plan changes are predicated on that point at which the yacht’s weather helm starts to become noticeable and before the inevitable round-up.  I’ve kind of translated one of your descriptions of sea conditions as “a bunch of whitecaps and the chop is getting organized into some waves”  to mean a moderate to fresh  breeze from 15mph to 18mph at which point you indicate that the reefed main and 90 jib handled those conditions. Can you tell me how much she would be heeled over in that scenario?  Also do you recall how much you were heeled over in the sustained 25mph wind with just the reefed main?

Thank you so much,
Jeff

Offline captronr

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2016, 04:48:53 PM »
Hi Jeff,

I might not be able to help with your compac--I just bought ours in Nov and HOPE to launch it this week!

We do have a 26X and have sailed it for 7 years.  My first year of sailing it, I couldn't keep it upright, it would spill air and round up in 17mph winds. All it did was scare the crew and move slowly.  Then I learned that it sails best at 15* and anything over 20* and you are losing speed.  I also had a new main and 150 genny. 
When I learned to reduce sail, the speed bumped up and heeling went down. 

Now, based on my guess, our compacs should be slower to heel and be less tender (if that's the right word).

We've love our Mac, but are selling it to be able to travel more and rig faster.  Hoping that the Eclipse works as well as we hope (we've never been on one on the water!).

Best wishes,
Ron
"When the world ends, I want to be in KANSAS, because its 20 years behind the times."  Plagarized from Mark Twain

Offline JEsails

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2016, 04:59:00 PM »
Thank you Jim.
I've heard that Lake Granby is not for the faint of heart. A friend told me that micro bursts are common as well as the knockdowns they cause. I love Colorado but I do wish for a warm prevailing wind and open water of more than 2 miles. I can't find a ComPac closer than Iowa but the search continues.

Offline deisher6

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 11:30:30 AM »
I've kind of translated one of your descriptions of sea conditions as “a bunch of whitecaps and the chop is getting organized into some waves”  to mean a moderate to fresh  breeze from 15mph to 18mph at which point you indicate that the reefed main and 90 jib handled those conditions. Can you tell me how much she would be heeled over in that scenario?  Also do you recall how much you were heeled over in the sustained 25mph wind with just the reefed main?

Hey Jeff:
I do not have a clinometer and I hesitate to guess because it generally seems worse than it is, however looking at a protractor I would guess the boat was heeled up to 30° at times possibly a little more in bad gusts ( wind was from the forward quarter).  With just the reefed main it did not heel much at all but the boom was high (wind was over the aft quarter to dead astern)

Theoretically I think that I would be very uncomfortable heeling much over 30°.  I filled the cockpit of our C-16 up to the seat even once and I do not think that it was healed much over that number.

regards charlie

Offline Duckie

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 04:24:31 PM »
I don't know, this is just my personal opinion, but if you have the rail in the water with a shoal draft boat, you should back off a bit.  That angle can be slightly different on different boats but I find that it works as an outer limit for heel with just a glance.  My main  boat is a shoal draft unballasted gaff rigged pocket yacht that will keep you busy if you are wise.  I rarely dip the rail on that boat mostly to keep the shallow keel engaged instead of skidding off.  I learned to sail in this boat and can't seem to get away from the demands of that type of boat.  My 16 is a whole other animal.  I can cleat off the sheets and go about my business because it is much slower to react.  I still have to mind the sheets in case of a bad gust, but she gives me much more time to react.  They do share a common trait though.  Both don't sail nearly as fast heeled way over than with just a bit of heel especially sailing into the wind.  Similarly, they both sail better if the sheets aren't tearing out the cleats.  For me the best balance of pull and push on any sail will be when the boat is closer to ten degrees of heel than anywhere else. 

I am a rank amateur whose senses aren't finely attuned to the feel of a sailboat, so these observations are subject to change, but for the last six years they have been consistent no matter the boat I might be sailing. 

Al

Offline JEsails

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2016, 03:48:28 PM »
Thank you to all you Skippers for indulging me in my . I appreciate the time you took to pass along your experience and answer my questions. Very helpful.

Offline kickingbug1

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Re: Performance -degree of heel relative to wind and sail plan
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 09:16:12 AM »
   when we had our 16 we found that she sailed best (in the groove) at 15 degrees. we replaced her with a catalina 18 last year. the cat sails much better to windward with a bit more draft and really feels great at about 18 degrees. seems to me that speed is only important if your are racing or on a passage and that much of the fun of sailing is in the heeling. flatter might be faster but you arent sailing unless you are heeling
oday 14 daysailor, chrysler musketeer cat, chrysler mutineer, com-pac 16-1 "kicknbug" renamed "audrey j", catalina capri 18 "audrey j"