Author Topic: More engine troubles...  (Read 2187 times)

Offline alsantini

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2016, 03:30:00 PM »
Checked my mount today.  Seems to be OK.  I loosened the motor and slid it side to side to get a look at the top looking for any cracks or whatever.  Did not find any, so I guess things are doing well.  However, I am going to make the inspection of the motor mounting pad a frequent thing to do.
Sail on all....    Al

Offline Tom L.

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 03:54:15 PM »
There is a lug on the side of most motors to be used to attach a safety cable. That cable should be attached to a substantial fixture on the boat a cleat a stanchion base or a dedicate eye/u-bolt. Good idea to do this little addition. Motor vibration can cause the clamping screws to back off not to mention the broken mount.

Tom L.
Present boat, Menger 19 "Wild Cat"    O'Day 25, Montego 25, Catalina 30, Tartan 37, Catalina 380, Mariner 19, Potter 19, Sun Cat

Offline alsantini

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2016, 01:20:56 PM »
I keep a cable around the motor mount and padlocked to the motor.  After tightening the clamps I cable tie them together so motor vibration cannot loosen them.  My motor looks old and feeble since it has been in water quite a few years.  The marina I am at does not allow motors to be up and out of the water because it is tight quarters.  Motor runs like a jewel but looks like crap since bottom end sits in the water all summer.  Cover is sun worn and faded.  Neighbor last year was telling me I needed to clean or replace the motor since it looked so bad.  He had a nice new Mercury 5 hp 4 stroke.  Next time I came to the marina, he was there moaning that someone took his new motor right off of the mount.  Yes, I think I will not clean up my motor or replace it until I need to.  LOL

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2016, 02:09:30 PM »
Larry,

Is it possible that you encountered an under water obstacle? You stated that the motor was in reverse at the time and that would have it locked down and unable to kick up, and you were in relatively shallow water near the dock proceeding forward. That would certainly have caused the kind of torque which broke your mount. Considering that it broke at the weak point (along the bolt holes) suggests that it was a twisting force rather than deterioration that caused the failure. If it were deteriorated deeply into the plastic I would think that the outer surface would have looked obviously degraded. Much of the area at the break is covered by the motor and not very exposed to the UV rays. Just a thought.

Ron
Ron
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Offline Potcake boy

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2016, 02:16:42 PM »
Larry,

As a P.S. I went back to review your pictures and the bolts appear to be bent upward, which supports the theory that your motor was forced up from the bottom. Of course knowing if that was the case won't fix the mount but may make you aware of such a danger in the future. Most of what us sailors know, has been from lessons hard learned.

Ron
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline lkm

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:31 PM »
I took the engine in yesterday - still waiting to hear what the mechanic found.

But I did talk to him about engines and mounts, and did a bit more searching online.

Regarding hitting something - No, I don't think so, but there may have been acute stress.  It was _just_ after putting into reverse (ie. the stress of shifting gears).  I had the RPM somewhat higher than normal (about 2000rpm-2500) and was revving the engine back up to avoid stalling.  I suspect that the gear shift was the straw that broke the camel, and did most of it in, then rev up took the rest to falling off.  Hard to say exactly, though.  Everything seemed to happen very quickly.
 I don't think the bolts are bent up.  I'll check more closely, but I think thats just an artifact of the fact that they are free floating above the bottom part.  The look strait to gross observation in real life.

The mechanic had not personally seen the plastic boards breaking, but was always suspicious about them, and had heard stories.  Also, I found a couple of other reviews on a mount that looks nearly the same as mine.  http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--replacement-2-polyethylene-mounting-boards-for-outboard-motor-bracket-for-bracket-assembly-11887999-and-11887981--11888039?green=335548E6-0538-53D9-ABF4-7EFBCE497467&cm_sp=Onsite-Recs-_-MB-_-PDP
These reviews indicate at least 2 others with similar issues. The mechanic indicated that the old fiberglass over wood is much better design because when the plastic goes it goes all at once, where the fiberglass/wood tends to fatigue by getting loose so you have time to detect it.  That makes a lot of sense to me, so I think I'm going to build one myself.

Regarding alternative lighter engines, I'm hearing mixed things.  Relatively consistently most folks prefer the Yamaha's, but when getting to details, most of these are using a 2 stroke (which isn't made anymore) or 2 cylinder (which gets almost as heavy as what I currently have).  Per the mechanic (who might be biased toward Tohatsu's), the major distinction is less the manufacturer, but instead the fact that the newer 4 strokes have to be EPA compliant, and have very tiny jets that make them fussy and clog easily.  In addition, ethanol in gas exacerbates the issues, so gas older than 1 month tends to create problems.  Per him, 2 cylinders, regardless of mfg, are a bit bigger and smoother, and the 2 strokers are just way better. 

Regarding horsepower needed, I found an online calculator (http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm) that suggests that 4 HP is plenty for this boat, and the issue is in the prop (http://www.go-fast.com/Prop_Slip_Calculator.htm).  Basically, I think most props are designed for very different purpose than we need.  Even with a very low pitch prop, at high RPM we are just slipping the prop a lot and wasting gas.  So I think what I want is the biggest low pitch prop I can find.  Unfortunately, thats where I'm stuck with the Yamaha vs Sailpro issue. 

In the 60#, single cylinder options, I found a Yamaha at dealer nearby that has a 4hp that looks much less expensive (http://www.clewsboats.com/#!new-outboards/c1m0y), and I sense that its a better engine but then I'd need a better prop, and I'm having trouble finding a high thrust (large dia, low pitch) prop to match this engine.  The Sailpro has a 6in pitch, 8.3"dia prop standard, and the 25in shaft for a bit more depth which I like, but some reports that the engine might be more fussy/noisy, and it currently looks to be more expensive.  Or, I could try go with a heavier 2 cyl, but then I'd likely keep I have, get a better prop, and try to arrange quick disconnects.

So your opinions/suggestions.
1) Where might I find a large dia/low pitch prop for a newer Yamaha?
2) Any experience with the Yamaha F4/F6 in particular suggest its better than the Sailpro 6HP? Or is it just the name Yamaha, tends to be better 'in general'.
3) How much difference does the 25in shaft make?
4) Know of anybody selling an older 2 stroke Yamaha/Suzuki in the 60# range? (and where can I get a good prop for that?)


2005 Eclipse #20 - Figaro

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2016, 10:35:00 AM »
Larry, I have an older (2002) Yamaha 4hp on a Suncat, and it is a pretty nice little motor. Runs smooth and quiet, more than enough power for the Suncat.

The new ones are available as a long shaft and there is a 6 amp output rectifier kit available. The exhaust exits above the prop which may help reverse thrust. It weighs slightly less than 62 pounds.

Ron
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline Eagleye

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2016, 12:15:40 PM »
Hi Larry,

Thank you for this thread and I'm sorry for your troubles.  I just checked the mount on my 06 Eclipse and all seems OK.    I have an older 6 hp Yamaha 2 stroke motor and it gives plenty of power to our Eclipse at half throttle.  The long shaft seems to work well but I have nothing to compare it with.  As mentioned in previous posts, I do keep a safety cable on the motor in the event something came loose but I never would have guessed the mount would be the issue. 

When traveling I also support the motor with a light ratchet strap up to the stern arch.  That works out perfectly on the Eclipse to relieve some of the weight and the bounce while traveling.  See the orange strap in the pic.





We hope to launch here I Upstate NY by the end of this month.  I hope you get Figaro back on the water soon. 

-Allen
"Madame Z"   2006 Eclipse    #42

Offline Salty19

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2016, 03:08:39 PM »
To be honest, I hate these little 4 stroke motors. Both a 3.5hp Tohatsu on our old 16 and a Nissan 6hp that came on our 19 anyway.  Carbs clog too easily, they vibrate like a harley and both fouled spark plugs, likely from not regularly bringing them to operating temperature (only need them to get out of the slip and get the main sail up), which may not be their fault, but still...4 strokes should not be fouling plugs!  I became well acquainted with tearing down their carbs, despite one being new and the other I rebuilt the carb before using it as a precautionary measure, and they both still were problematic before the end of one season.  Yes, I used fresh gas with sea foam and ethanol affect reducing additives. 

Having grown quickly tired of them, I searched around on craigslist and found a nice 1998 Yamaha 8hp 2 stroke, twin cylinder about 3 hours away.  We met halfway for me to buy it.  $1,000, was never used just scratched a little from handling (yes it was never used, zero carbon on the pistons).  It has run flawlessly without any work on it, until last year when it started to take 2-4 pulls to start vs. one.  I cleaned the carb, installed a rebuild kit, exhaust ports,intake manifold, reeds and replaced the thermostat and cleaned the water jackets and spark plugs this winter, along with checking timing (fine), and water pump (fine). After readjusting the pilot screw and idle, it purrs like a kitten.  It has NEVER stalled or failed to start.   If anything, I have been LESS particular about fresh gas with the 2 stroke, but still treated the gas as before.  The only thing I did after the end of the season was drain the carb and fuel line and change the lower end oil, along with fogging the cylinders and cleaning the plugs each year.   Oh, and little bugs would get into the pee hole, so I sometimes had to use weed wacker line to unclog the pee hole.  But that's not the engines fault.

With 100:1 gas:oil ratio, they don't really smoke or stink much, and the reliability is worth the extra minute it takes to measure out the oil.

Since it gets so little use I'm hopeful it will last a long time.  Oh, and high trust props are available, and I do use one.  It has plenty of torque and I love that it can idle very low in gear to creep up to the dock WITHOUT stalling.  It doesn't vibrate much at all either, more of a slight buzz, and it's not nearly as loud as the old 4 strokes.   It's 59lbs with long shaft (20").

Basically what I am saying is no 4 strokes for me anymore.  Too much trouble for what they are worth, IMO.




Offline Mike K

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2016, 10:41:26 PM »
Larry,

Sorry to hear of your mount failure.  That big motor has been a lot of trouble, no?

If you start looking at new motors, I really like the Honda 4 stroke 5 HP on my Precision 21. It starts easier and vibrates less than my Tohatsu 4 hp on my CP Legacy, and the steering "lock" stays straight ahead on the Honda when I want it to.  The Tohatsu's all slip and really can't be tightened to go straight.  By the way, the Tohatsu 4, 5 and 6 are all the exact same engines except for the carburetors, so they all weigh the same.

The 2 pluses of Tohatsu's are they are inexpensive, and the reverse shift lever is on the front of the engine where it's easy to get to. Reaching my Honda's shift lever on the side of the motor is a real hassle on my P21 with the stern rail catbird seats. It might be easy to reach on an Eclipse however.

Like EagleEye, when trailering, I also use a ratchet strap from the boom gallows or back rail to take a lot of the weight of the engine and therefore adsorb dynamic bump loads.  I do this not only for the adjustable drop mount on the P21 but for the fixed mount on the Legacy.  It's essential unless you take the motor off for traveling.

Good Luck,
Mike
Mike.  '13 Legacy "Santosha".

Offline lkm

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2016, 09:27:06 PM »
In follow up, I took Salty19's advice on both accounts.

A "new" (used) 2stroke 4hp motor (~45lbs) from craigslist on a hand built 'fiberglassed the $#@#$ out over wood' mount.




Now for a weekend free to try it out.

For reference also some other pictures of the old mount which under close inspection does show evidence of cracks elsewhere.
I suspect this would be what others should look for.





2005 Eclipse #20 - Figaro

Offline mattman

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2016, 04:55:04 PM »
This may help,

 http://www.pure-gas.org/

hopefully you have a station near you. I use sea foam, alleged real gas from my local FS, never drain the carbs or tank. Mower, outboard, motorcycle all start right up in the spring after sitting for five months. Best of luck.

Offline Bob23

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2016, 08:07:34 PM »
None in NJ. I may have to smuggle some in from out of state.
Bob23..the gas criminal!

Offline Eagleye

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2016, 08:01:20 AM »
You are in luck, Bob.  No need to smuggle. 
This place looks like it is right in your neighborhood.

Griffin Vehicle Service - SUNOCO
1551 County Rd 532, Chatsworth NJ
Ethanol-free octane ratings: 87 91 93
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Offline Shawn

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2016, 10:17:50 AM »
Salty,

I'm surprised you were fouling plugs, my Tohatsu Sailpro only did that when I had too much oil in the crankcase. But I also had a 10 or 15 minute motor out of the harbor to get the sails up so it did have time to warm up which could have been part of the difference too. A Racor fuel filter was installed inline as well.

They aren't into the single cylinder engines yet but Suzuki keeps shrinking their battery less fuel injection system down for outboards. Smallest at this point is their 9.9 HP engine. Being a sealed system the fuel won't evaporate (like in a carb) so fuel issues should be reduced along with the more precise control with FI it looks to be an interesting engine. I have one on order.

Shawn