Author Topic: More engine troubles...  (Read 1976 times)

Offline Tom L.

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2016, 12:29:23 PM »
http://www.pure-gas.org/

I had problems with my Nissan 5hp 4 stroke until I switched to non ethanol gas. No issues at all now. I do run the carb as dry as possible when I shut down at the end of the day.

Use the site above to find a near by location. I believe small airports use Non ethanol fuel  too. 

I personally really like the 4 stroke over a 2. To me the motor sips fuel and is far more reliable.

Tom L.
Present boat, Menger 19 "Wild Cat"    O'Day 25, Montego 25, Catalina 30, Tartan 37, Catalina 380, Mariner 19, Potter 19, Sun Cat

Offline alsantini

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2016, 12:41:14 PM »
Let me throw in my two cents worth.  E-10 is more trouble than it is worth (personal opinion...).  When I bought my Eclipse it came with a tank of supposedly E-10.  Half way through the summer I could not get my Nissan 4 hp 4 stroke started - no fuel.  I filled the internal tank with some gas and it fired right up.  Once back in the slip I realized that the bottom pick-up in the tank had kinda melted blocking all fuel flow.  Had to buy a new tank, which only sees non-ethanol fuel.  Buy it at marinas in Florida in the winter and in Wisconsin during the summer.  Even though it is a bit of a PITA, the motor runs better, starts 2nd pull and idles right down.  Part of the problem appears to be the fact that some fuels carry more than 10% and of course ethanol loves water which we happen to be sitting in.  Sail On....    Al

Offline Salty19

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2016, 04:16:29 PM »
lkm..I think you made an excellent choice in the motor and the new mount.  I would love to get my hands on a 4 or 5hp Yamaha 2 stroke long shaft.

But I do like the 8hp because it has several hi-torque props available, the twin cylinders lets it run very smoothly, and it has tons of power if needed.  Reliability has been basically perfect.   Yes, it uses more fuel, but that's OK for me as I don't need to motor much at all.  The most I might motor is 2 miles if the sky looks like rain coming.  Usually only run 4-6 gallons of gas a year, refilling the 3 gallon tank twice with 2 gallons every few months.  Usually have left-over at the end of the season.   I'm sure better fuel economy would be important for those motoring longer distances or cruising, but you can always carry more fuel whereas rebuilding the ^$()& while on the go would be a major pain in the keel. 

I'm definitely not the only one that experienced the fouled spark plug syndrome on the Tohatsu/Nissans (same exact motor with different stickers).
Once upon a time I took vacation down in the Tampa area and hooked up with our forum member Billy, who has since sold his CP19 with Tohatsu sail pro motor, to go for a day sail.   Well, we got the boat launched and of course the motor wouldn't start.  We sailed anyway as both us were confident we didn't need it--afterall, we are sailors, but in the end the reason for the non-start was a fouled spark plug.    I think he does motor longer distances as the channel we needed to traverse was at least a mile.  I back out of the slip, motor 200 feet past the no wake marker and raise sail, then turn the engine off. 

Either the spark plug issue is more common that it should be, or I'm just cursed! Probably cursed...:)

Regardless, my experience with 4 strokes==unreliable carb clogging, plug fouling, temperamental machines and 2 strokes=zero problems, that's the story and I'm sticking to it! :)

I do use ethanol fuel, and I won't doubt that I might have had better luck using non-ethanol.  It is available close to me at another lake with unlimited HP boats at the marina, and I probably should start using it!

Al--Wow, that is wild that the fuel ate through the pickup feed!   That right there is giving me motivation to grab some non-ethanol fuel!!


Offline Tom L.

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2016, 06:33:34 PM »
Hey Salty,

I did have plug fouling. It was operator error from laying the motor on the wrong side. There is a right and wrong side. My motor should be laid on the side with the throttle handle down. Seemed wrong to me but after more carefully checking out the manual and there is a sticker on the motor too that says this side up but who looks at that stuff. I now tilt the motor in the bracket then rotate it to the proper side down when sailing. I rotate it to the correct side because if I didn't it may actually accidentally rotate to the other side and I would have fouling issues. It is caused by the crank case oil finding it's way into the carb. But only if it is laying on the gear shift side down.

Tom L.
Present boat, Menger 19 "Wild Cat"    O'Day 25, Montego 25, Catalina 30, Tartan 37, Catalina 380, Mariner 19, Potter 19, Sun Cat

Offline Shawn

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2016, 07:45:41 PM »
That was going to be my next question....  was the engine transported properly? If it isn't the oil can get through the PCV into the carb and from there get onto the plug. That is basically what happened when I had a little to much oil in the crankcase. The oil foamed and went up the PCV and fouled out the plug. My mistake, not the engines.

Incorrect transport is a potential problem on all four stroke outboards though some (Yamaha) have additional features to expand the ways they can be transported. I have a little Suzuki 2.5 hp that was transported wrong and it had its crankcase filled with oil to the point of not being able to be turned over. My little 3hp aircooled 2 stroke doesn't care what position it is transported in.

Shawn

Offline Salty19

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2016, 09:14:08 PM »
Interesting discussion!  I can't speak for Billy's issue, but bringing this topic back made me think about the way I handled the outboard, and indeed makes me wonder if there was operator error in the equation?

I knew to lay it down on the throttle handle, and always did transport it and store/work on of them in this manner. I do RTFL despite the manly urges to do otherwise. Actually, I stored it upright and only really remember laying them down while in the back of the SUV on the way to/from the infamous CLR event (which I am bummed that I can't attend this year!!!).

But!!!  My boats have sat in slips the entire time I used both of these motors on either boat.  Because of the low coaming on the 16, and the stern rail seats and coaming on the 19, while at dock, the motor is titled with the throttle facing upward.  Well, not all the way up, but at a North-Easterly direction so to speak.  Meaning, around a 45* angle up. 

Hmmm...wonder if this contributed to the fouling?  You know, I suspect so as they were oily.  I would swap them out while on the water (learned to bring the tool and spare plug!), and would smell gas too, but that's probably fairly normal with the choke on. Seems likely that either the short running time or at-slip tilt angle are the culprits. 

What throttle angle are you slip rats using while raised at the dock?

Still, dog gone carbs jam up too fast.  This makes me think about something else too.  Jet sizes.  That is, the carburetor jet sizes. A lot of you guys know this, but to help understand what's going in the carburetor, the carb "main" jet is the small metal part within the carb that draws liquid fuel up from the fuel bowl during operation at some point higher RPM's then idle (when opening the throttle beyond idle.  Actually to be more specific, there are two jets, the pilot jet for idle and very low speed operation, and the main jet adds more fuel when the throttle is opened up. Where the two engage with the throttle handle is for a deeper discussion, but suffice to say the pilot jet runs the engine at idle and at small throttle openings, and the main jet then draws more fuel as the throttle is opening by way of increased vacuum.  The jets draw raw fuel up into their tiny (sometimes hair-width) openings and the fuel atomized as they leave the jets into larger openings with negative pressure (from the piston pulling air through the intake, then opened valve of the throttle). 

Anywho..these jets have sizes like 28, 30, 32, 35, 28, 45, 48 for the pilot jet (talking small but high performance motors like outboards) and main jet sizes ranging from??  Guessing 98--200, depending on the motor.  The larger the size, the larger the opening.  The EPA has forced less emissions and the manufacturers are making these jets smaller for less unspent fuel emissions.  Part of the reason by the economy is so good on the 4strokes--their jets are quite a bit smaller then older 4 stroke motors, and certainly smaller than 2-strokes because 2 strokes by design will need almost twice as much fuel (appx). 

Makes me wonder if replacing these jets on the 4 stroke to a little larger size will cut own the crap that will clog them.  It would take a larger piece of dirt to clog.  It would run richer, and not be quite as efficient, but I bet it would help to keep them clean. 

But then there's the vibration.  Both of these single cylinder 4-stroke engines seems to rattle the whole the boat and were loud compared to a silky smooth 2-stroke twin (at least our Yamaha 8hp).  It can't be just me that noticed how much more vibration the 4-strokes have?

Interesting in your thoughts on at-slip rest angle, jet size increases and vibration?

Sorry for the massive thread drift.  Maybe I'll put it on track by posting some pics of the wood engine board for those considering replacement of the plastic one.  I was kind buried in epoxy, sawdust and paint during the experience, so I don't have many pictures.  It's just 9 layers of 4mm marine ply with thickened West Marine Slow cure epoxy covered in carbon fiber sheet, and marine-grade paint, with inlaid elevator bolts. Super strong and will probably outlast me.

Offline Shawn

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2016, 09:42:03 PM »
Salty,

“Hmmm...wonder if this contributed to the fouling?  You know, I suspect so as they were oily.”

If they were oily I’d be surprised if this wasn’t the issue. When I overfilled my crankcase the plug was oily for sure.

I typically stored mine up with the tiller side down and I did tilt it all the way up.

Connecting that with your point about jet sizes… these engines aren’t running very rich by design. Other than running with the choke on I tend to think it would be fairly hard to actually foul the plug from being to rich.

Might have been luck or it may have been the Racor filter and Seafoam I used but I never had a clogged jet in my Sailpro. That is with 4 years of use, never running the carb empty (except winterizing it) and using the same gas all season.

I did get a clogged jet in the Suzuki after I stored it wrong and filled the cylinder with oil. 

“ It can't be just me that noticed how much more vibration the 4-strokes have?”

I think that is more from single cylinder vs two cylinder with a little bit also 2 vs 4 stroke… esp. around idle. 4hp-6hp 2 strokes were commonly 2 cylinders, they are all singles on four strokes.

On the Sailpro it shook the most at idle but smoothed out while running. A four stroke the has the wrong prop on it will shake more too as the engine is essentially lugging and can’t get the RPMs up to develop all its power.

I will have a 2 cylinder 4 stroke in the very near future so I can report on that soon.

Shawn

Added: Watch this Tohatsu 2 stroke single cylinder shake at idle... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX3JdywCB4M
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 09:49:16 PM by Shawn »

Offline alsantini

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2016, 09:04:28 AM »
I store my motor in the slip one click up from straight up and down.  We have narrow passageways in the marina and the owner does not allow full tilt on the motor if the boat extends beyond the end of the dock.  My Eclipse hangs over the end just a bit, so when I am gone I tilt her up that one click which does not pull the prop out of the water but most of the lower end is out in fresh air and sunshine.  Then I turn the motor clockwise putting the handle downward.  Last thing I do is pull the fuel line.  With a newer unvented tank I found, in hot weather, the pressure build up in the tank would flood the carb.  Normally I de-pressurize the tank before connecting the hose to the motor.  For the past 2 years I have not used E-10, as I mentioned before, and I believe that the motor runs better, starts on 2 pulls, idles down to nothing.  The hassle of finding non-ethanol fuel seems to be worth it.  I also have the same plug in for 2 years - something that I was never been able to do.  I have owned this Nissan 4 hp 4 stroke for 14 years and used to put a plug in half way through the summer and would have to clean out the jet annually.  I have a welders clean out tool set on board.  I know the motor is louder and has more vibration than a 2 stroke but not mixing the gas and oil is something that I do not miss.  A once a year oil change with synthetic Mobile 1 keeps the motor and me happy.  BTW I have replaced all the lines on the motor, the fuel pump, filters (many) and plugs while on E-10, and nothing since changing over.  But, of course your mileage may vary....   Al

Offline Craig Weis

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2016, 10:13:40 AM »
Well at the end of last season I  unplugged the fuel line and let the 5 hp two cycle run dry and stall.

Next day put the boat into six and a half months of winter weather in a metal building rented from the county fair. The O/B continued to hang on it's mount. No big deal. There is no difference 'tween sitting for a week or for a half year.
 
Together our ford Model 'A' and the boat stored for $350.

Fuel in the boat is always British Petroleum Premium [BP] which has zero ethanol in any percentage to fag out the rubber blatters within the pulse activated fuel pump and/or any other rubber pieces used in the carb.    A rebuild kit for my Mercury outboard cost $17 bucks from the local marine [SkiperBuds] parts window. Took about a day to receive the parts.

In the Ford Model 'A' [86 years old] needs any grade and type of fuel because the carb has no rubber parts. Ethanol is fine.

So I put the boat in the water a few weeks ago, raised the mast by my self and had Gary on the safety line tied to the fuller and run through the anchor roller to the cleat on the trailer. The O/B fuel line was attached and the tank's ball was squeezed up for pressure and with full choke plus one pull, a sputter. Than half choke and she started with one more pull. Every year it's the same. Runs fine and strong. Using same fuel from last season. Never took the disconnected fuel tank out of the boat.
 
No problems.
Most times when the engine won't start it is fuel delivery. You understand that the engine has ...
 
compression [feel it on the pull]
spark [a sputter]
timing doesn't change [nothing to do here]
so it fuel delivery [two cycles need to be blubbery rich to start]

"Gotta start, says so in the book"

i use no cylinder lube spray, or Stabil, or Seafoam, Marvel Mystery Oil or other crap and have not changed the spark plug for three seasons. Although I do carry an new plug that is still in the tool pouch.

Now go out and understand and fix your engine and fun.

craig.



« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 10:37:55 AM by skip »

Offline Salty19

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2016, 05:19:26 PM »
Shawn,
I agree with everything you have said.

Makes me wonder if, perhaps, by the act of tilting the motor sideways with tiller handle facing 45* up (while mounted on the boat in the slip), contributed to the fouling.  Just you said, these 4 strokes run pretty lean and since they were oily, well, there must have been oil on them causing the issue.
And since I usually would only run the motor of 5-8 minutes or so at a time, they probably were never hot enough to burn off the excess oil. However, on occasion I would motor 15-20 minutes back into coves, to get back before rain hit, or just felt like motoring.

I stored it in the garage standing up and transported it in the SUV correctly, but while sitting at the slip this wasn't exactly the case!

That Racor filter is on my list...has been for a long time, just have not got around to it (famous words of most sailors!).

Thanks for your thoughts.

Skip, do note that your BP station without ethanol is very much an anomaly.  I've never seen one that that has made this claim, and I travel A LOT.



Offline Shawn

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2016, 09:17:22 PM »
Salty,

The Racor I used was the 120R. I just bought another for my new Suzuki DF9.9BTX.

Racor also has a model with a built in priming bulb (445R or 490R) that looks interesting. If you have a newer non-vented fuel tank you might need a fuel demand valve inline if you remove a new style priming bulb.

Shawn

Offline Craig Weis

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2016, 12:36:23 AM »
" Skip, do note that your BP station without ethanol is very much an anomaly.  I've never seen one that that has made this claim, and I travel A LOT. "

Could be only because Sturgeon bay is a boating town that our two BP's offer the no ethanol premium. There is a sign on the pumps indicating what grades of fuel have no ethanol.

When I worked delivering drugs for Bay Pharmacy the owner of the Pharm also owned both BP gas stations. He since divested himself of them.

craig.

Offline Shawn

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2016, 09:02:44 PM »

I will have a 2 cylinder 4 stroke in the very near future so I can report on that soon.

I had a chance to test this out yesterday with my new Suzuki after finally getting the boat launched.

The two cylinder 4 stroke is much smoother than a single cylinder at idle.

Video of the first start of the Suzuki
https://flic.kr/p/JDCQSL


Low speed running...
https://flic.kr/p/JxErxN


A little below half throttle (GPS said closer to 4.7 knots into a slack tide, I think my knotmeter is binding slightly)
https://flic.kr/p/JFca8H

Best part was sailing. I used the electric tilt to get the outboard out of the water and I had previously glassed over the prop shaft tube and removed the strut. With just a working jib up I got up to 5.9 knots in 15-20 knot wind. The lack of drag (and about 250 pound weight loss) makes the boat easier to drive.

https://flic.kr/p/JC8vmf


Shawn


Offline brackish

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2016, 09:57:17 PM »
trying to catch up here, I'm so confused about where this is going.

On the subject of storage angle, my sail pro sits in the slip at the first position up from vertical which I think is about 30 degrees, oriented dead ahead. 

Two years into the sail pro experience I have never had even the slightest problem.  If left for a month or so it starts on 4-5 pulls, once out restart is generally one pull.  Overnight is generally one pull.  It runs smoothly at any speed.

My process:  the fuel line had never been disconnected from the motor during the time of ownership.  The fuel has never been run dry in the motor.  I only disconnect the fuel line at the tank to refill it because my marina has requested we take the tanks to the parking lot to refill (floating dock foam, apparently, spills have been a problem). The goal here is to keep the system completely full of fuel and under pressure eliminating the possibility of temperature cycle condensation  The motor has never seen anything but non ethanol gasoline.  I do put a little Seafoam treatment in there because sometimes the fuel sits longer than I would like and I'm hoping that will slow any phase separation, whatever that is.

Now to catch up.....Shawn what is the two cylinder Suzuki on?  did you pull the diesel on your Sabre and replace with an outboard?  What HP is it?  will it get you to hull speed?  Does the trim seem to be ok for sailing with the weight shift?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 09:59:28 PM by brackish »

Offline Shawn

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Re: More engine troubles...
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2016, 10:56:38 PM »
Brackish,

Yup, Suzuki is on the Sabre. The diesel's high pressure fuel pump died (again) during winter storage. I didn't realize it had gone bad till after I spend 3 hours changing out the impellers on it. (I converted it to fresh water cooling last season after the overheating problems I had in the first season.) By that point I was just tired of all the time spend maintaining the old diesel, the ridiculous contortions to gain access to it and all the money spent on it each season thinking 'this is it.' I could have fixed it yet again but that seemed increasingly crazy.

So I pulled it out. Probably should have done that when it died on me the first time.






Once I get that area cleaned up I will have a bunch more storage. Even more so when I pull the 20 gallon tank that is behind that area under the cockpit floor.

The Suzuki is a 9.9hp engine that is the same block as their 20hp outboard. Big 10" x 5 " pitch 4 bladed prop. Boat was only launched 3 days ago so I am still breaking in the Suzuki. So far I think it drives the Sabre better than the Volvo. The Volvo would do about 4 knots at 1600 rpm, 5 knots at 2000rpm and about 5.5 knot WOT and around 2500 rpm. At about half throttle the Suzuki has me doing about 5 knots.

I have only had her sailing on working jib alone at this point. In that situation the boat was driven *very* well. Was almost to hull speed in 15-20 knot wind. The Suzuki was power tilted out of the water and I had removed the old prop and strut and glassed the hull smooth.

Not sure how much the balance is going to be altered yet. I'm going to end up being 200-300 pounds lighter after I get everything diesel related out of the boat. The Volvo with transmission was a little under 400 pounds. Prop shaft, prop and strut were probably another 30. I imagine the muffler, muffler hose, cooling hoses, heat exchanger, 20 gallon fuel tank, fuel filters, tank hoses...etc...etc are another 50 pounds at least and I probably pulled another 15 or 20  pounds of spare parts and diesel specific tools out of the boat already.

The Suzuki is 125 pounds, mount is about 30 and the (2) 1'x2'x1" fiberglass plates I used to reinforce the transom are around 15 pounds each.

I'm probably going to add my heavy chain to the anchor locker which will put about 70 pounds right up front which should help to offset the weight change/shift.

Shawn