Author Topic: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking  (Read 1786 times)

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2016, 08:58:02 AM »
I would look for input on a Yamaha or Suzuki in the 6hp range from owners. I had a Suncat with an older Yamaha 4hp, and that motor was amazing for a single cylinder, quiet and smooth and always started even after sitting for a while.

Some interesting analyses!  I was a science major and used to know all that electrical stuff, but it is in cobwebs now.

Great analysis and opinions by all, Rob and Ron, you both have mentioned the Yamaha 4 or 6 hp. Interesting to look at the RPM specs:

Yamaha F6 hp
6hp @ 5000rpm
4500 ~ 5500 rpm

Yamaha F4 hp
4hp at 4500 rpm
4000 ~ 5000 rpm

Since you cannot get a four blade high-thrust prop on these like you can on the Tohatsu 6hp sail pro, I found the lowest pitch three blade prop Yamaha has for the 4/6 hp models:
Yamaha Propeller 7 1/4 dia x 6 1/2 pitch (P/N 6E0-45949-00-00)

Do you think the 4hp with its lower RPM and lower pitch prop is enough to push the HC/HDC along in wind and chop?

Most important, is the 20" lenght shaft on the Yamaha enough on the HC/HDC or do you really need the longer 25" shaft available on the Tohatsu 6hp sail pro?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 09:01:06 AM by Zephyros »
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)

Offline Tim Gardner

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2016, 09:02:51 AM »
I currently have a Yamaha 4HP on my 19.  Does a great job even in winds of 30+ knots. Three blade prop, half throttle is hull speed.

TG
"The sea is selective, slow at recognition of effort and aptitude, but fast in sinking the unfit"  - Adm Felix Riesenberg.

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2016, 09:54:23 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for sharing that research, looks like we are closer than I thought to a practical solution. So I'm seeing that in the long run there may be very little cost difference? I really like the LI technology, and would probably go that direction myself if for no other reason than to continue LI development.
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline rbh1515

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2016, 11:28:17 AM »
About 12 years ago I had a 4hp Yamaha on my Colgate 26.  Loved the motor.  Was very reliable, and pushed the boat along in wind and waves at 1/2 throttle.
Rob
2015 Horizon Day Cat, Waters End

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2016, 12:46:40 PM »
For those of you using a 20" shaft outboard, is it long enough when using it on the factory motor bracket on either the HC or HDC?

Since I'll be on inland lakes I don't need to worry about swells.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 12:59:11 PM by Zephyros »
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)

Offline Tim Gardner

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2016, 01:06:26 PM »
I think 20 inches is marginal, 25 is much better.
"The sea is selective, slow at recognition of effort and aptitude, but fast in sinking the unfit"  - Adm Felix Riesenberg.

Offline Shawn

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2016, 05:20:16 PM »
Rob,

“1) Cost: Expensive but not over the top expensive.  Retail $1999;  got it from Defender during their spring sale for 20% off retail.  Offsetting the high price, I don't buy gas and there is no yearly maintenance.  After 5 years there is maintenance needed, and I don't yet know the cost.”

There will also be the cost of a replacement battery when that time comes. The smaller battery is around $600 or so. Overall ongoing costs of the Torqeedo vs a small outboard are probably going to be not all that far apart. If you get a 7 year life out of the battery it is costing you about $85 a year. An outboards maintenance and fuel should be there or likely less… assuming you do the work yourself.

“2) Ease of use:  push a button to start.  Don't have to yank on anything.  Shifter is built into the throttle, so you don't have to reach back to shift.  There is an available remote throttle...that's what I use, and it makes life very easy! “
 
This is a big benefit! This is all doable with an outboard too but not the smaller models. Going from a manual tilt, pull start outboard on my Compac to the eventual electric start, remote controlled, power tilt Suzuki on my Sabre is a dramatic difference in ease of use. Some of the small outboards have kits to add remote throttle and shifting but it would still be pull start and manual tilt.

“Battery weighs 10#, and engine weighs 20#.  Easy to take on and off.  Since I use the remote throttle, I don't have the tiller throttle attached, and it is very easy to tilt the outboard out of the water.”

That is fantastic. I have to deal with a 120 pound outboard…….

“Torqeedo just came out with a 915Wh battery.  That would give me 1 hour ar full throttle.”

That suggests the engine is making at or a little above 1hp at full throttle. That is roughly what all the old British Seagull outboards actually made. But due to their gearing and prop size (sound familiar) they had the ability to push pretty heavy boats decently.

Shawn

Offline Shawn

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2016, 05:22:14 PM »
For those of you using a 20" shaft outboard, is it long enough when using it on the factory motor bracket on either the HC or HDC?

Since I'll be on inland lakes I don't need to worry about swells.

What about wake? Also consider where the powerhead would be on your transom with a 20" shaft vs. a 25" shaft. That can make a difference in ease of use when trying to pull start, or reach the shifter.

Shawn

Offline rbh1515

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2016, 08:12:11 PM »
Shawn,
Excellent point about the battery life!  It will be interesting to see how long it lasts.  So far in the second season, I don't notice any degradation, but they do say that it degrades every year.  You definitely have to take care of the battery.  They say to keep the battery away from heat.  They also have recommendations on what to do during the winter.  I hope I get more than 7 years.  Maybe in seven years the batteries will be dirt cheap?!
Rob
2015 Horizon Day Cat, Waters End

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2016, 11:47:43 AM »
So it looks like if the consensus is the HC/HDC needs a 25" shaft length outboard, these are the only choices I can find, did I miss any others in the 4-5-6 hp range?

Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro outboard:
Model #: MFS6CSPROUL
Shaft Length: 25"
Weight: 59 lbs
Cylinders: One (vib/rumble running)

Suzuki 9.9 HP DF9.9BTL EFI outboard:
Electric Start / Power Tilt
Model #: DF9.9BTH
Shaft Length: 25"
Weight: 127 lbs
Cylinders: Two (smooth running)
>>> Did I mention EFI, Electric Start / Power Tilt and two cylinders?

Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 T outboard:
Model #: Cruise 2.0 TS / Cruise 2.0 TL
Shaft Length: 25"(S) / 30"(L)
Weight: 39 lbs(S) / 41 lbs(L)

So from what I can see the trade-offs are:

Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro outboard:
Lightest weight
Still really need to remove for towing, although some strap it up for support and trailer anyway
Roughest running, one cylinder, vibration and rumble

Suzuki 9.9 HP DF9.9BTL EFI outboard:
>>> Did I mention EFI, Electric Start / Power Tilt and two smooth running cylinders?
Okay, it's heavy, so maybe, just a thought, I concede to loose the trailer and just stay at one lake, knowing that the benefits of the engine out weight the ability to trailer it anywhere. Now the reality I need to evaluate, I've bought a lot of stuff in life with all the options, cars, computers, etc, and then never use those options, food for thought!

Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 T outboard:
Weight is the best, option of 25" or 30" shaft, priced about $3,400 more than the Suzuki ($800 more for the motor plus $2,600 for the battery)
Now one huge consideration, where Rob can take his Torqeedo 1003 removable battery home with him after sailing, the 54 pound Torqeedo 26-104 battery is not really something you want to disconnect and haul home every time. This leads us to capacity loss and battery temperature:
Average capacity loss per year:
4% at 77 °F ambient temperature*
% loss at elevated temperature - NOT PUBLISHED?
*Depending on utilization and environmental temperature
(more on this in the next post)
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2016, 11:50:28 AM »
"Torqeedo Battery Average capacity loss" continued from above post:

Torqeedo Battery Chemistry: LiNMC (lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide)
http://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/batteries/power-26-104/2103-00.html

Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4)
Most Li-manganese batteries blend with lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) to improve the specific energy and prolong the life span. This combination brings out the best in each system, and the LMO (NMC) is chosen for most electric vehicles, such as the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt and BMW i3.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

Which leads to articles on Nissan Leaf having serious temperature related capacity loss issues for cars located in Arizona and Texas heat:
All The Results From Independent Test Of Nissan LEAFs With Lost Capacity. Not All Instrument Failure
The Nissan LEAF electric car was introduced to the world as a mass production vehicle during December 2010. Almost 40,000 have been sold around the world in the short time since then, with well over 10,000 sold in the USA. Unfortunately, a percentage of those USA cars that are operated in hot climates, such as Phoenix, Arizona, and the state of Texas, have experienced accelerated losses of the vehicle’s range autonomy, when compared to its performance when new. The phenomenon is not relegated solely to areas of extreme heat; many LEAFs now in moderate temperature areas of California have also experienced significant range autonomy reduction, however not yet to the extent of those cars exposed to Arizona and Texas heat.
http://insideevs.com/all-the-results-from-the-largest-independent-test-of-nissan-leafs-with-lost-capacity-not-instrument-failure/

Nissan Leaf Lawsuit: New Battery Replacement for Unhappy Customers
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/nissan-leaf-lawsuit-battery/#.V9VyMa1v4aA

So in deep diving into battery technology, this paper gives the first clue after a couple of hours of research:

On page 48 you see the battery charging graphs in Seattle vs Phoenix:
Battery Durability in Electrified Vehicle Applications:
Geek Alert Warning, this paper goes deep, such as:
Moreover, changes in the stoichiometry of the transition metals have been reported in aged NMC materials.
https://www2.unece.org/wiki/download/attachments/29884985/EVE-18-04e.pdf?api=v2

Summary:
The Torqeedo 26-104 is a passivly cooled LiNMC battery. Located in the bilge area of a HC or HDC in full Texas sun I'm guessing it may see temperatures of 100-120 degrees on a hot day. Since I plan to keep it in a covered slip even there I suspect the bilge area would still get to about 90-110 degrees on a hot day.

So the next question is, does this just really beg to say, at $2,600 per battery, do I want to go there. Or, perhaps if I put a timer on the charger and only allow charging at night during the low temperature of the day that maybe this will help increase the battery life? Recommendation: More research required.
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)

Offline Shawn

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2016, 12:15:53 PM »
“>>> Did I mention EFI, Electric Start / Power Tilt and two cylinders?”

Also double the charging capacity, a real oil filter, MUCH more displacement (low end torque, same engine as the 20hp Suzuki) and NMEA 2000. If you have a chartplotter you can get a bunch of engine data on it for RPM, temp, fuel consumption and so on. Full remote is also available as the 9.9BTX model.

With that much weight on the stern you will need to compensate as your waterline is going to be changed. You will be dragging your stern. The Suzuki on my stern (and removing the inboard) changed my waterline a bit. I added about 80 pounds of chain to my anchor locker to help compensate for it.


You will also need to upgrade your motor mount. If you place the mount well you might not need it to be a lifting mount. Tilt could get it completely out of the water. It turns out that is how I use mine.

Click here to see it running....

Untitled by Compac23, on Flickr

It is a great motor, but it is overkill for a Horizon Cat.

Have you considered an electric trolling motor? Minn Kota has a few with around 100 pounds of thrust, that should move you fine. It uses standard batteries.

Shawn

Offline Potcake boy

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2016, 03:57:59 PM »
To be really cool you could put two trolling motors on the transom. Run one or both as needed, and have the maneuverability of twin engines. Probably less money than Torqeedo and you can place batteries near the centerline for proper trim. As I mentioned earlier I used a trolling motor on my Picnic Cat and it moved it just fine. Started out with a group 24 battery for trial purposes but sold the boat before I had a chance to upgrade to two larger capacity batteries which I had planned to place on either side of the centerboard case. With two batteries installed you could wire it to use 24 VDC motors which are even more efficient. You could just use a fixed bracket for these motors because you can adjust the depth of the shaft. Using AGM batteries you wouldn't have to worry about the charging issues of LI. Just get a decent two battery charger (I like the Genius charger myself). From what I've read you can get 4 or 5 hours runtime at medium speed with two group 31 batteries and two medium sized trolling motors, or more with a single 24 VDC. This rig with charger and all shouldn't cost more than $1,200 - $1,300.

If you let this thing get any more complicated you'll never get around to going sailing. Besides, the mechanical propulsion is "auxiliary". Buy a trolling motor somewhere that you can return it (Walmart probably has pretty good prices), mount it on your boat with a decent battery (you'll) need one anyway and try it out. Real life experience is always better than theory, and a lot more fun.
Ron
Pilot House 23 - GladRags
Punta Gorda Florida

A mouse around the house - but much hotter on the water

Offline blighhigh

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2016, 04:48:57 PM »
I did use a trolling motor on my dinghy.  Worked great.  Quiet (which is one of the reasons that I love sailing.) Cheap. Light weight and easy to manipulate.  I hadn't thought of the idea of using two on a HC transom but why not!  Good suggestion.

Offline Zephyros

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Re: HC/HDC Engine Choices and Single Handed Docking
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2016, 08:15:13 AM »
With that much weight on the stern you will need to compensate as your waterline is going to be changed.

You will also need to upgrade your motor mount. If you place the mount well you might not need it to be a lifting mount.

Hi Shawn,

Great video and information of the data you can get from the Suzuki, nice an quiet, thank you. I looked at the Minn Kota's and the largest they have is a 2hp at $3,000. I really want to stay 4hp minimum to get through the wake and chop during typical 20mph winds of the Great Plains you get across the Texas lakes.

Great suggestion on the fixed bracket, thank you. Next time your at your boat would you mind please measuring your Suzuki 9.9 in its full tilted up position, the point from the top of the cowling to the transom. Basically, what would the setback need to be for a fixed bracket, such as 12", 15", 21", etc and have clearance for the fuel and remote lines bend radius?

Tom
Tom, aka, Zephyros (sailing the west wind from California to Texas)